The pronunciation of Cadogan and of other London names

My daughter was telling me about a concert she'd been to in Cadogan Hall, only the conversation was more about the correct pronunciation of Cadogan than the music. The correct pronunciation is Caduggan (with the stress on the 'dug'). The Cadogan family members are, and always have been, very wealthy Chelsea landowners.

 

By coincidence, there was an article on the Londonist website today about the pronunciation of some difficult London place names. The Bois of Theydon Bois in Essex is not pronounced the French way, as in Bois (bwah) de Boulogne, but as Boyce or Boyz. The L of Hainault is pronounced, but the L of Holborn is not. Although many of us say the mall of shopping mall like 'moll', the road in central London the Mall is pronounced to rhyme with 'pal', as is Pall Mall. The W of Greenwich, Woolwich, Southwark and Chiswick is silent (although we pronounce the W of Gatwick Airport and of Aldwych). The P of Deptford is usually not pronounced.

 

There is disagreement among commentators on the article about the pronunciation of Plaistow in east London. I've heard 'Plarse-toe', and that's what some of the commentators say, but others say 'Play-stow'.

 

Here's the article, with some informative comments.

Comments

[dw]

I've always pronounced "mall" to rhyme with "wall".

[Picky]

I see the comments on that article replay our discussion about Greenwich - even to the extent of having a fellow Deptfordian chip in with Grinnidge!

[Jemmy Hope]

When I was a kid we were told that Greenock in Scotland is pronounced 'Grennock'. Then I met someone from Greenock who pronounced it 'GREENock'.
I also met someone from Derby who told me that nobody in Derby pronounces the name 'Darby'. I don't know, never having been there. Maybe he was pulling my leg.

[Picky]

I'm pretty sure you're right about Greenock, Jemmy - I think the Grennock thing s a bit of nonsense from non-Scots. I suspect you may have been having your leg pulled about Derby, though. But then I believe it's true that most of the inhabitants of Shrewsbury pronounce it like the rodent, rather than with the SHOW vowel.

[Picky]

Incidentally, I would call it Plarse-toe, too, but then there's no telling really how they may pronounce things on that uncivilised side of the river.

[Virtual Linguist]

Thanks for all your comments -- you're all much more knowledgeable than me, or the writer of the original article. Yes, I thought of you, Picky, when I read those comments about Greenwich.

[Marc Leavitt]

Susan:
As a non-Brit, I've always prided myself on properly pronouncing these persnickety place names, but I continue to be amazed by some. I just recently learned that Hough is pronounced "How" by the locals. I would have thought it was pronounced "Huff," but the ou diphthong is the most maddening in the language. Local pronuciations of place names really need input from locals; there are no fast rules. Here in Central New Jersey, more specifically in New Brunswick, we have a Buccleuch Park (properly pronounced "Buckloo" after its scots origin). We pronounce it "Bugle-oh." In northern Massachusetts, the town of Leominster is pronounced "Lemminster"(with a rhotic pronunciation; in Indiana, Cole Porter's native town of Peru is pronounced "Pee-roo." Frustrating, isn't it?

[John]

One more into the mix: in Massachusetts, where I am, one finds Leicester, pronounced officially as in England, "Lester" ("Lesta" with the local accent.) One state over in NY, there's another Leicester - pronounced "Lie sester".

[Marc Leavitt]

One more example of the idiosyncrasy of place-name pronunciation: Newark-on-Trent is pronounced Nyuawk; Newark, NJ is pronounced Noork(rhotic), and Newark, Delaware is pronounced Noo-ark(rhotic).

[Virtual Linguist]

Thanks for these comments -- all new info for me. Marc -- I once knew someone from a little place called Hough Green in Cheshire, north-west England, and they pronounced it 'huff'! Slough, a large town near Heathrow Airport, rhymes with 'cow'. Newark in Nottinghamshire (properly Newark-on-Trent, too) is pronounced like your Newark-on-Trent. John -- the only place you hear the Lie-sester (or Lie-chester) pronunciation here is from foreign tourists on the Tube (Underground)!

[Picky]

Cadogan is not the only name where the o has that value - there's Govan, for instance, and McGovern, and there was a time when one could hear Bromley and Coventry pronounced with that vowel. And there are plenty more words like that: above, love, come, govern, sloven, dove, wonder, done, money, one, other, smother, brother, mother, does, glove. Is there some general vowel (that's another one) shift that caused this? Is it something to do with the following consonant?

[Virtual Linguist]

Yes, those are interesting points, Picky, and it reminds me of something I've heard locally (Guildford). The old Surrey pronunciation of a name like Gomshall, was Gumshall. I don't know if there are any rules for the pronunciation. It doesn't seem to be related to the following consonant -- the 'o' of rove, stove and clover is different and the 'o's of brother and brothel are pronounced differently.

[web development USA, web development Florida]

I believe it's true that most of the inhabitants of Shrewsbury pronounce it like the rodent, rather than with the SHOW vowel.

[John]

That's true in Massachusetts - "shrew", not "show".

[Alex Knisely]

The names of the towns and townships along the Delaware River on the New Jersey side recapitulate those along the Thames -- East Greenwich, Woolwich, Deptford... Wool-witch, Green-witch, but Depp-furd (nothing to do with Henry and his automobile). Wonder why some pronunciations were kept, some lost; or were Stuart-era -- that was the time of settlement there -- pronunciations preserved uniformly in the States?

[Virtual Linguist]

Thanks Alex. I'm afraid I don't know whether pronunciations from the Stuart era behaved differently from those of other times. Thanks for reading and for your informed comment.